Blowjob Survivor - Idiotic Christian Beliefs: God Is Pro-Life Edition
Antiabortion and prolife are synonymous. Prove that God supports abortion, and then you can refute the He is prolife.
Good luck finding scriptures that state, "Beloved Brethren, go, fornicate, be fruitful and multiply, and then behold have thee child dismembered in thine womb."
And good luck to you proving that god is anti-abortion.
Ruth, How sad that you describe our loving God as a "sadistic, misogynist, irrational psychopath" and yourself a "former" Christian. I do not pretend to be a Bible expert or theologian, but I'll do the best I can to address your woefully erroneous Scripture misinterpretations, one by one, proving that God loves you and He is most certainly pro-life. I'm slow at this and want to do the best I can, so it may take several entries over time, but let's give it a go. My message will also be one I think you will like- God is ultimately also pro-"choice", in that He gives each one of us a very clear "choice" to make over and over each day; we can CHOOSE to do good or CHOOSE to do evil, but be ready to enjoy or suffer either the rewards or consequences.
To begin with, Genesis 1:27 tells us we are each made in the image of God, who created us. He blessed us and God saw that all He had made was very good. Yet, within the very next chapter Genesis 2, man and woman are tempted in the Garden of Eden and given a "choice" between obeying God or succumbing to temptation, choosing between good and evil. Though they had everything they could possibly want, they directly disobeyed God by knowingly and intentionally eating from the ONE tree out of the whole garden, that God had specifically forbidden, "for when you eat of it you will surely die." God, their Creator, lovingly provided everything, issued an unambiguous command restricting just ONE tree in the whole garden, and warned of dire consequences, yet Adam and Eve defiantly disobeyed Him, listened to the "crafty serpent" and suffered God's wrath as a result. Silly people! Yet, we do the same thing every day. God loves us, provides for us, gives us clear rules to live by, with certain very well-defined good/bad consequences, yet we CHOOSE whether or not to obey. God is merciful. God is kind and slow to anger, but when He issues His judgment, be forewarned. You are right, being an "unbeliever" is no excuse for misunderstanding His message and disobedience cannot be dismissed with "I didn't know...", yet in His abundant mercy, He sent His only Son to die for us so that our sins may be forgiven. How much more loving can you be than that? Christ giving up His life for me and for you and for all sinners is in stark contrast to the extremely selfish "my body, my choice" abortion-rights mentality.
Throughout my response, I will never claim that the Old Testament is defunct, for it foretells events of the New Testament, including Jesus Christ as our Savior who "was crucified for our sins" exactly as you say. You begin with the flood of Genesis 7, but let's look at the previous chapter 6 to better understand God's seemingly extreme actions. In 6:5-7 "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the heart was ONLY EVIL ALL THE TIME. The Lord was grieved, that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain. So the Lord said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth". In contrast, Noah was "a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God". "Noah did everything just as God commanded him", an important point which is repeated several times. Obviously, the sinfulness of the world grieved God our Creator very deeply and they suffered His judgment, yet God in His mercy, promises Noah and his descendants that "never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done" in Gen 8:21. Again, the message is clear, each of us can CHOOSE between good and evil. There will be consequences for wicked behavior and rewards for walking in obedience. God keeps His promises.
My comments are exceeding the maximum allowance, so I'll break it into two parts.
Comment from "Abortion Hurts for a Lifetime" continued:
After Noah and the flood, you then move on to Genesis 19, Sodom and Gomorrah. However, lets back up and look at chapter 18, to better understand God's seemingly "sadistic" actions as you erroneously describe. In Genesis 18:20-33, the "Lord said, 'The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reach me". Abraham, who had been chosen by the Lord for "doing what is right and just" asks God, "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?" We see Abraham plead with God for the righteous lives who resided in Sodom and Gomorrah. He asks, "What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you sweep it away or save the lives of those fifty?" In Genesis 18:26 "The Lord said, 'If I find fifty righeous people in the city of Sodom, I wlll spare THE WHOLE PLACE for their sake." Finally, God says, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it [the city].", but unfortunately, there weren't even ten righteous people in the whole city. In His mercy, we read in 19:5, God sends two angels to warn Lot, Abraham's nephew, and his family to escape, but the people of the city were so wicked that they called to Lot "Where are the men [the two angels] who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot says to them, "No, my FRIENDS. DON'T DO this wicked thing." Oddly, Lot then offers his two daughters, but the wicked citizens get even more angry and emboldened, pressuring Lot, threatening to break down the door of his house. The angels tell Lot in Gen 19:14, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city! Take your wife and daughters, or you will be swept away when the city is punished." For the Lord was merciful to them. They were also warned, "Don't look back and don't stop! Flee or you will be swept away!" Instead of obeying this urgent and serious warning, Lot and his family were slow to respond, having grown accustomed to the comforts of a "successful" life in the wicked city, and in Gen:26, "Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt".
Therefore, again we see a merciful God, who grieves over our wicked ways, gives us clear direction, allows us to CHOOSE between good and evil, and warns us there will be consequences. He urges us to flee from evil and not look back, but how does the non-repentant, pro-abortion community respond? How do I respond?
That's all I can write tonight, Ruth. Still have dishes to do and the 5:30 alarm comes too quickly.
I'll write more soon. May the loving God who created you and me, keep us close, invite us back, for He has never left us, no matter how far we have strayed from Him. Let us use the gift of "choice" to make the right decisions in our lives, choosing good, not evil, humbly relying on His grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
Posted by Abortion Hurts for a Lifetime, from the INS community
Ruth, While we are in the Old Testament, how about inviting your pro-abortion Jewish friend to join us for an interesting exchange, particularly as we explore Exodus, in which God orchestrates the greatest rescue effort in history, saving the Israelites from 400 years of enslavement, instituting the Passover, and bringing them into the Promised Land. You are correct, Exodus 4:21 reads, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart", but you erroneously imply that Egypt's leader was a good ol' guy whose sweet disposition was abruptly changed for the worse by God. Let's look at Egypt's kings during that time and see how they consistently mis-treated the Israelites, God's chosen people, to determine if this is true.
Pharaoh thought the Israelites had gotten too numerous Exodus 1:9, so he enslaved them, "oppresses them with forced labor" and "worked them ruthlessly". Then this otherwise "really nice guy" Pharaoh (according to your presumption of innocence), orders the midwives to kill all the Hebrew babies if it is a boy, but if it is a girl, let her live (Exodus 1:16). The midwives bravely refused to obey his ruthless orders, so again this "really nice guy" Pharaoh gave this order, "Every boy that is born you must throw in the Nile, but let every girl live", hence the whole story of Moses' mother saving her son's life by hiding him in a basket, to be adopted later into by the unknowing Pharaoh's daughter. Obviously, Pharaoh was allowed to practice free will, as you were questioning, through his terribly mean treatment of the Israelites. Before any of the ten plagues began, God warned Pharaoh of what He would do if Pharaoh didn't let His people go, but the ultimatum only made Pharaoh more stubborn, already hardening his heart.
In Exodus 5, Moses says to Pharaoh, "Let my people go" and Pharaoh arrogantly and defiantly (sound familiar??) responds "Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go." The Israelites had been enslaved for 400 years, making bricks to build Pharaoh's cities. Pharaoh became so vengeful that "he ordered his slave drivers and foremen in charge of the people not to supply the straw for the people any longer, but make them gather their own, yet require them to make the same number of bricks as before; don't reduce the quota, for they are lazy, that is why they are crying out." Ex 5:14 The Israelites were beaten when they didn't meet their quota of bricks. God "heard the groaning of the Israelites, who were enslaved, and remembered the covenant He had made with them." All of this cruel treatment of the Israelites by Pharaoh occurred before God had hardened Pharaoh's heart, so truly he had already been given plenty of opportunity to express his "free will" as you inquire and choose to do the right thing by releasing the Israelite people out of bondage. Pharaoh freely and consistently chose a disobedient life, which led God to harden his heart. The message is clear, obey and harden not your heart, for there are serious consequences, and over time the condition may become permanent. God took no delight in any of the plagues, but again disobedience will be punished.
Next, you mention Exodus 14 when God brings an estimated two million Israelites out of 430 years of Egyptian slavery. Not willing to let the Israelites, his free labor force, go, Pharaoh chased after the Israelites with 600 of his chariots. The Israelites, God's chosen people (aka the Jews) were terrified and cried out to the Lord. As they were chased through the Red Sea by the Egyptian soldiers, God saved the Jewish people by drowning their enemies. Therefore, you are correct that God eventually hardened Pharaoh's heart, 10 plagues did take place, and the Egyptian soldiers who pursued the escaping Israelites (aka Hebrews, Jews) were drowned in the Red Sea. God keeps His promises, hears the cries of His people, rescues them from bondage, and punishes their enemies. After all, the leaders and citizens of Egypt were disobedient and cruel to the Israelites for over 400 years, so what exactly do you expect from God? He gives us specific commands, warns us of consequences, and keeps His Word.
Signed Abortion Hurts for a Lifetime
Ruth, are you or any one else reading these comments? Is anyone going to agree or disagree in response? I'm losing motivation just writing to myself. I think I'll take a break until there is some indication this effort is worth continuing. At a pace of one a night, this could be a project for the whole summer, which is fine, if anyone was interested, but if not, I've got lots of other things that I really should be doing tonight...
Please answer the fundamental question first, Ruth - (Anonymous) Expand
I agree with you: there appears to be a lot of evidence in the Bible that makes God look anything but pro-life. Why do I believe He is Love then? I am not sure, I just know that I do, and I also know it is true. Perhaps my faith is the greatest gift I have. I look around and see the world God created: the peaceful beauty of a tree - a sunset - bright white clouds against an azure sky - the sun dancing on the water - the tiny hand of a baby wrapped around my finger - and I know only a loving God could create you and me and all of this. Does He want any of us to hurt? No. He wants us to know Him, to Love Him, to serve Him - to live with Him in happiness forever in Heaven. Do I get angry with Him when things don't go my way? Yes. Do I ever think He doesn't care about me and what happens to me? Yes. One time I was standing on my back porch, in a lot of emotional pain, and angry at God because I was blaming Him for my pain and His apparent lack of doing anything to help me. I screamed at Him through my tears - "You don't even care about what I'm going through!" I heard Him say "Oh, My Child" and I felt flooded with so much love I could not began to receive it. Ruth, He loves you in the very same way. I cannot resolve for you the conflicts you find in the Scriptures, or even the conflicts you see in us sinful Christians. I will leave the Scripture exegesis for more accomplished scholars than I. All I can share with you is that as a limited human being I have come to realize I can not completely understand my Creator or how or even why exactly He created me, but I know He loves me - I know He loves you - I know He loves each one of us - no matter how small, no matter how old, no matter how beautiful or ugly - how bright or how dull - and that the only reason any of us exist is through His love. God bless you.
So Christians who accept God never hurt? Well, then sign me up!
It’s truly refreshing to find another former-Christian-turned-atheist (Southern Baptist in my case) in this Christ-haunted culture of ours, especially one as grounded in the knowledge of so-called scripture as yourself. Pending your permission—hopefully forthcoming—I’ve taken the liberty of adding to my flist. I will, of course, honor your wishes should you ask me to remove you, but hope you can find it in your interests to add me as well.
Keep on fighting the good fight!
Thank you. And I've friend you in return. :)
Do you mind if people post links to this? I have some fundie-type friends that I feel like irritating.
Very good job with the research. I'm a deconverted Christian as well, currently agnostic, and I can appreciate how both tedious and stomach-churning reading and analyzing all of that must have been. Good job!
I am looking forward to future installments, especially the one on Catholicism!
Use it however you'd like. You don't even have to credit me. The more of us who fight against delusion and christian idiocy the better!
I love Bab 5! I'm a total sci-fi nut. :)
I don't know you (I'm a friend of zas), but this is a brilliant post.
Another great icon!
You're seriously awesome. Mind if I add you?
(wandered over here from cf_hardcore, by the way)
Found my way here via your post in atheism - great article. :) I've friended you so I can keep up on the articles in your upcoming list, you don't have to friend me back if I don't seem like somebody you'd be interested in. ;)
I've checked out your user info and am friending you back. :)
Wow, I'm impressed. You really did your homework.
Too often, religious (Christian) leaders only find what they want to find in the Bible, and use it to brainwash impressionable minds.
I'm friending you, and this was very good. It raised a lot of good points. Unfortunetly, I was never a christian and so have never read the bible, but I do take your word.
I never recommend that anyone take another's word for it, which is why I provided scriptural references and a link to a searchable online bible.
Also, I'm a woman, a feminist, and militantly pro-choice and I can't help but interpret the world through those lenses. Which is why I welcome criticism.
Lucky you for not having had to pull yourself from the morass of christian delusion! My fiancé was raised by his atheist father, so he doesn't harbor any of the bitterness that I do over feeling such guilt over my sexual nature, as well as having bought into the xtian homophobia. Seriously, I hate christianity. I envy the both of you (but in a happy way)! :D
What a fantastic post. Your replies to the xian bloke are great as well. You've really done your homework. I never understood how anyone could read the bible and find a loving, prolife deity.
I came across this, and it seemed to me that most of the comments were not addressing the core problem of this post, which is that the author conveniently ignores the fact that God is anti-abortion. We know this by using God's commandment, "Thou shalt not murder" along with the scientific fact that an alive (growing, etc.), human (46 chromosomes) individual (DNA is genetically "new"- the combination has never yet existed) is created at conception. If this is difficult to comprehend, then there is also the example that DementedChicken presented. When Exodus 21:22-25 is correctly translated, it reads,
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that the child comes forth, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life....”
Notice that this passage treats the unborn in the same manner of the woman. To read more on this subject, and to see why DementedChicken's version is an incorrect translation of Hebrew, see here (http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5700).
Now, onto the focus of this post, which instead of "Is God Pro-life?" seems to be "Is God a 'sadistic, misogynistic, irrational psychopath'?"
Is it in the character of a "sadistic, misogynistic, irrational psychopath" to allow Himself to undergo everything and give His life in order to save the lives of others? To quote U2, "What more in the name of love?" Is it the character of a "sadistic, misogynistic, irrational psychopath" to have women be the first to witness His resurrection?
One more thing- One cannot expect humanity to completely understand God. Now, this may sound like a convenient "cop-out", but it's obviously true. I mean, think, if there is an all-powerful being, how well do you think we would comprehend it? Since when does the creation completely comprehend the Creator? Heck, we humans can't even understand the working of our own brain, much less the One who made us.
Moreover, it is entirely human nature to say that just because we cannot understand the unknown, it doesn't exist. This is basically the atheistic viewpoint. It is surprising that we humans have not managed to progress past this point, considering that this thinking has greatly hindered us in the past. For example, we thought that because we had not discovered the Americas yet, the world must go no further.
Anyways, I can probably expect ridicule from this, but I hope that at least one open-minded atheist is reading, and I hope that they can at least try to see it from my perspective.
(Btw, I did all my own homework, unlike others on this livejournal. Any readers impressed by bjsurvivor can view this (http://www.evilbible.com/evils%20of%20the%20torah.htm) webpage to view some of her "inspiration." Notice the remarkably similar, "God entraps humans...")
~~A 16-year-old former fetus who firmly believes God is pro-life
The ability to save premature babies is a modern advancement, so the harm alluded to in this passage is clearly only applicable to the woman. Nice try, though. Again and again, we are treated to god's ordering/committing the slaughter of pregnant women, which, since it is obvious you need it pointed out to you, also kills their fetuses. Tamar was to be burned to death, even though she was pregnant, and was only able to save herself and her fetuses from slaughter by presenting incontrovertible proof that her father-in-law had impregnated her. If god and his chosen people had considered fetuses to be separate individuals, wouldn't it make sense that they would have waited until after she gave birth before executing her?
If god is a sadistic, misogynistic psychopath, the proof for which I have provided profuse but by no means exhaustive scriptural evidence, then, logically, he cannot be pro-life (except, perhaps, in the minds of his morally bankrupt, egotistical, insane fan club).
Actually, one can expect humanity to fully understand god. Take a look at Psalms 119:130, which tells us that the "Word of God" is understandable even to idiots. Again, nice try, but you really should read the entire post if you hope to actually be taken seriously in this debate.
Atheists do not believe that what is unknown simply doesn't exist. Atheists believe that though there is much we still do not know and may never understand in our current lifetimes, these mysteries may eventually be solved with our scientific methods. Or they may never be solved. We are comfortable with unknowns, unlike fundamentalist christians, who are so afraid of the unknown that they choose to believe in a vengeful, bloodthirsty deity rather than rely on the ability to reason with which we humans have been endowed.
I have personally met and interacted with many teenagers on the Internet who blow me away in terms of moral courage, passion in their writing, reading comprehension, and reasoning skills. You are not one of these teenagers. But I do commend you for your courage in putting yourself out there.
~~A 36-year-old former fetus who has provided incontrovertible scriptural evidence and logical deduction that the christian deity IS NOT pro-life.
You are awesome!
Man, the Bible is just filled with depravity. Most of it committed by God, or by people working at his behest. Sad and scary that all this is glossed over or excused, in the face of all evidence.
Thank you, that was a very interesting read. It's been years since I gave up religion for good, and this was a good reminder on why I could never go back. If you don't mind, I'll add you to my friends list.
Speaking as a pro-life, former-Christian-turned-pagan--I applaud you. The Christian Bible is actually a very, VERY chilling book when people bother to read it.
Hope you don't mind if I friend you; I'd like to read the rest of these articles.
They'll be public. I am neither ashamed of nor afraid to speak my mind. And I welcome intelligent debate, as well correction of my logical or comprehension fallacies.
Magnificent post. All the points you list led to my leaving the Baptist church (black folks' version) in mind at the age of nine; it'd take another eleven years to finally get free. So-- I'm here from your link at cf_hardcore-- would you mind if I added you? Your future essay topics sound like delicious brain treats.
Came here from [Unknown LJ tag]. Awesome post; you rock.
I'd like to add you to read your future posts on religion. Please don't worry about adding me back. I just want to read. Thanks.
Having just read your userinfo, I'll just tell you that you probably won't want to add me back, anyway. :-P
I have five children, and I write a lot about parenting. Especially lately. I also homeschool, I gave birth at home, breastfed, etc. My children are obviously a very big part of my life.
Not saying for you *not* to add me and read if you want to. I've opened it up. You might especially enjoy my posts on religion (in my memories). Just thought I'd let you know what I'm about, or at least what I mostly write about these days.
If you don't mind, I'm friending you as well. Your skillful refutation of the chickenshit anonymous fundie twerp above is brilliant. If the asshole was so certain he/she/it was right, why didn't he/she/it have the balls/ovaries/whatever to provide a name? Their modus operandi is forever to obfuscate, refuse to answer the questions put to them and shovel tons more horseshit into the fray. Buncha damned pussies!
To think that so many of the same kinds of assholes have influence over the Christofascist Republican Party is scary. Yes, they want a theocracy and they're willing to endure a dictatorship in order to get it. Whenever I wonder how they can be so stupid, referring to these threads will be helpful.
wonderful post! friending you, if that is okay. :) (here via cfhc)
Came here via cf_hc. Fabulous post! Friending you, posthaste.
Here via the atheism community, found reading this incredibly interesting, as well as the "debate" above. Following the trend of friending to read future entries, assuming this post gets no responses requesting the contrary. ^_^
I got here through a link in one of the pro-choice communities... and this is awesome. Hope you don't mind... I'm adding you to my f-list. I also would love to link to this post if you don't mind... it's very well-presented.
I recently trashpicked a 100+ year old bible. I was originally planning to write a new one over top of it, for the First Church of Hentai, but i think i'm going to annotate the original text as a sort of anti-christian bible, with different colors for the different kinds of nastiness that god loves. Then i can stand around and preach about god's hate, how god does not love the little children, how god wants you to kill everyone, and so forth.